Rising Above The Static
Episode #284: Aye Chan Naing is a pioneering journalist and activist dedicated to independent media in Myanmar. He co-founded the Democratic Voice of Burma (DVB) in the years following the military’s violent crackdown during the 1988 student-led uprising.
He was drawn to activism after witnessing the brutality of the regime. After fleeing to the Thai-Burma border, he joined the All Burma Students’ Democratic Front but soon found his passion in journalism, inspired by figures like Swedish journalist, Bertil Lintner.
In 1992, he launched DVB as a shortwave broadcaster based in Norway with support from the government there. He aimed to provide a voice for the pro-democracy movement and challenge the military’s grip on information.
DVB became a vital link for the Burmese people, offering an independent perspective at a time when the government tightly controlled the media. The organization expanded from radio to multimedia, amplifying voices that were otherwise silenced. In 2012, DVB returned to Myanmar following political reforms, but Aye Chan Naing faced obstacles under Aung San Suu Kyi’s administration, which limited media access and failed to foster an open environment.
The situation worsened after the 2021 military coup, forcing DVB back into exile. Despite severe challenges, DVB continues to operate using underground reporters inside Myanmar. “When you have a microphone, you can say whatever you want, right? But if we’re doing exactly the same as the Burmese military, we are no different,” he says. “The more we studied, the more we learned about journalism. And it has to be about the people.”
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Joah McGee (Insight Myanmar Podcast host)
For this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast, we’re joined by DVB, founder and editor HN nine. DVB is the democratic voice of Burma, and we’re going to learn about how DVB has been active following the coup, as well as how it was founded and Aye Chan Naing’s own journey. So thank you so much for joining us for this episode.
Aye Chan Naing (DVB Chief Editor)
1:55
Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been my pleasure to talk to you and have been following your podcast for quite some time. And congratulations with your job success, and I’m happy to be you know, talking to you. Thank you so much.
Joah
2:14.
I’m really looking forward as well into the conversation that follows and getting to know more about your media institution, one of the most important local journalism that’s been covering Myanmar for some time, as well as your own personal story of how you got there. So if we can get into your personal story first, and you could talk a bit about yourself and where you came from and how you eventually found your way to activism before going to media.
Aye Chan Naing
2:42
I came out from Burma. You know, during the 1988 student led protests inside Burma, and I was a student nothing to do with media. I was studying dentistry, but then during the uprising, of course, you know, as a student, we were pretty close, following the whole uprising and joining the demonstration on the streets. And then suddenly the military started, you know, arresting students, killing them on the streets. There were lots of human rights violation and lots of brutalities, and that triggered me, you know, getting more involved into activisms, and then I decided to leave the country to take up arms, in fact, join the arms struggle from the Thai Burma border. But then I ended up in the student army all Burma student Democratic Front. I ended up in the information department, just by chance, you know. And then I started doing the publication called Don news bulletin. It’s once a month and and since I was involved with, you know, news and media, I met lots of journalists, foreign journalists, and I met lots of human rights activists from like Amnesty International Human Right watch, and they need lots of information about what’s going on inside Burma. And I found myself pretty, pretty much into it. So I was into writing story and gathering information and documentation, providing lots of data to human rights groups and foreign journalists. So that’s how I got into, you know, instead of the armed struggle, I had gone into more into a journalist, and then the 1991 And Aung San Suu Kyi got the Nobel Peace Prize, and Norwegian government was pretty eager to support and our exciting government was invited for Nobel Peace Prize ceremony. And then they asked for shockwave radio to brought us back to Burma from the Norwegian government and to be based in Norway, because it’s stable and it’s safe, and then the Norwegian government agree, and they provide facility for shortwave radio brokers license and also funding for the setting up the organization. So I was not only one of the found. I mean, I was not the only founder. I mean, there were three other people. One we started in Norway and and then there were quite a big group in maniplo, in fact, at the time, mostly from ABSDF and the groups. So we were kind of group of young people who started the DVB, right?
Joah
6:10
That is a story of warp speed, of going from being a student minding your own business with your studies to being the emerging leader of a major news organization. So to break down those parts a little more, to go back to 1988 I understand at that time you were a student that was as any student anywhere in the world engaged in your studies focused, that sounds like not so much on political activism or on the process of education. And 88 came along swept you up. You saw fellow students murdered in the streets, cold blooded in broad daylight by soldiers, and that set you on a life of activism, which then led to the armed struggle. But before getting to the arm struggle, part of it, can you tell us more about your experience as a student? If you can take yourself back when those days started to unfold, because at that time, in 1988 there wasn’t a lot of years of political activism or resistance. The military was in very firm control. 1974 of course, with dance funeral, something happened. But as many years were not, much was really happening day to day, and this came seemingly out of nowhere and swept everything up. So as a student who was around at that time and seen it unfold, what do you remember about as things started to pick up and there was more momentum, you started to see things, talk about things, hear things, feel things, what can you do to bring us back to the color of those moments?
Aye Chan Naing
7:39
You know, in fact, even though I started, I mean actively joining the anti government demonstration. I mean growing up, we were all pretty much aware of ingesting in the country, and pretty much aware, mean we talk about at home, you know, in on the dinner table, because this whole just stick, it’s, it’s pretty much visible and and then for me, like, because I, I was growing up in the university compound area and pretty close, pretty much close, to the formal student union that was exploded by Jen Rene win. And that was that time I wasn’t even born, like three, four years later I was born, but that area, like we pass every day, you know, and then as I grow up, you know, my friends, my brother, my parents, you know, they always told us about the story and and all these military former general or the general, they are every department, wherever you go, you know they are the boss, and all the civilian like have to walk under them. And and my family come from civil servant. You know they walk in different carbon departments. And and their boss, it’s somebody you know, coming from the army, who know nothing about their job, right? But then they want to, they want to tell what you should do. You know, that kind of thing. It’s visible, and we never like it. And the more we grow up, the more we we we learn about this power imbalance. You know, there is a ruler, it’s a one class, and the general public, it’s a lower class, that kind of thing. You know, even among your friends, you have friends who, who parents are in the. Military, they behave totally different. They’re quite arrogant, you know, they show their world. And just simply because they are in the army, you know that that kind of thing, it’s a huge difference. But then the first experience I had was in 1975 76 I don’t remember exactly. That was during the U tan funeral. The student took his body from the airport, and they marched down to the Rangoon University to honor him, you know. And that was just outside my house, you know. So there were hundreds of students marching in front of our our house and getting into the university compound. And they occupied the university compound for a week. And I was like 1011, years old. I can hear all the, you know, speeches, sounds that they play inside the university. And every evening we walk down and listen to them, you know, they were very peaceful and very organized, and they just stay inside the university compound. And then one day, there were lots of army trucks and tanks like rolling in, you know, in front of our house and going going to the wrangling University. There was like four or five early in the morning, lots of soldiers, and we started hearing again, gun shots, like around seven, eight, and there were lots of students running away, and some of them even come through our our compound. And we saw, I saw the soldier. There were lots of Buddhist mountain too. And the students, they were like, we have a big compound with lots of houses. So they were all hiding in different places and and then when the soldier came in, they took them, they beat them. I’d see it in front of my eyes, you know, from my house, including the monk. And they were many, many students were arrested. So growing up in Burma, you kind of really, even though, even if you don’t want to, right, but all these things happening, this ingesting, it’s happening in front of you your daily life. You know, it’s kind of driven you this politics into your mind, like something is not right. And I will say, after ut affair, many they shut down the university for like, two, three years, and then when the university open, they introduce every university students have to learn political science. I think that’s the major mistake. They thought they could, they can, you know, do their propaganda and, of course, the socialism it’s is the best right out of, you know, all the different political ideologies and and when I got to university, I have to learn political science, but then you’re even more clear, visible, you know what they teach you, it’s totally different from what’s happening in the real life. You know, that’s their their their that’s their socialism, but they just said it, that’s on the paper. But in reality, it’s a total different, right? And that driven many student, I think, even more into into politics.
Joah
14:05
So it sounds like when 1988 was beginning, this wasn’t something for you that was this activism came from nowhere, and suddenly you were animated. It sounds like you were growing up with the awareness of this injustice and this brutality throughout your life. And 88 was a trigger. It was a spark that allowed you to act.
Aye Chan Naing
14:26
Exactly, I mean, like many of friends, like when I got to university, you know, when we go for sit in the tea shop, because there’s lots of students do most of the time, we just talk about politics. I mean politics. Mean, like, day to day politics, like, you know, not like a big ideology, you know, that kind of thing. But this is, this is not right, you know. So the Exactly, I mean, it’s 88 it’s a trickle. But they are the there have been many, many years of building up to that stage, right?
Joah
15:08
So you have those years of building up where you’re having these whispered, hushed conversations and tea shops with close friends who you can trust, slowly building up, not really manifesting in any real, tangible ways in the streets. 88 was a complete reversal of that in terms of the activity that was visible, not just in the city nationally, but internationally, is now covering this coming to the fore. What did it feel like to be a student at that time and have these concerns that had long been on your mind and had been issues of contention and frustration, and suddenly have them in the air publicly for all to see.
Aye Chan Naing
15:54
I would say, you know, the student life was quite nice. In fact, you know, it’s quite relaxed and it’s enjoying, enjoyable. During those days, you’ve got many friends you can go and visit, but, but then again, like with this political in mind, you kind of almost waiting for the time to come, you know, to start the revolution, really, yeah. I mean, unconsciously, right. So the minute the ADA started, we from the beginning, we started to jump in. You know, it started from the from the Institute of Technology, pretty far like at the time. I mean outside of not outside, I was kind of Yangon, and then quickly spread to Rangoon University. And then for Rangoon University, it’s spread into into the town, like medical university, like my institute, dental Institute, that’s in the downtown Yangon. So it’s, it’s like a forest fire, you know, it’s really quick, mostly just among the students. But then one the military started arresting students, beating them on the streets, you know, shooting them. And then few months later, the general public started joining in. And then the 88 was like in September, sorry, August, Ada was like the biggest, like, you know, every early of life join in, like the lawyer, doctor, you know, nurses, teacher, you know, everybody join in. It just, it was just like in the 2021, military coup. You know, it was quite big, and many people thought at the time too, like the military would fall. We didn’t believe so, I mean, we believed like there would be a coup. And, you know, we need to take up Aung to fight them back, because there have been lots of peaceful demonstration, and all the demonstration have been brutally cracked down, and they would never give up, you know, peacefully.
Joah
18:39
So, 8888, this is a tremendously important day in Burmese history. You were there. Can you tell us what exactly you were doing, where you were on 8888 and describe the experience of what it felt like to be on a street where everyone, as you say, was there, and there was this feeling of optimism. What if? If we were to be transported back there today, or to see a let’s imagine a HD television of bringing us down to the streets, what would we see?
Aye Chan Naing
19:13
Yeah, 88 started in much that’s the beginning. You know, instead of from the ranking Technology Institute, just purely with, with, with the fight between the local and the students, you know, and then they shot and killed one of the students and and that trigger, I mean that more the next morning in the in the news from the government, they accused the student as a troublemaker, you know, the rebellion. So it was just totally one side, and we knew the whole story. Yeah, it was a blended lie that’s already kind of created. Hunger inside. And then it spread into Aung University. I went there, and I was listening to the speeches, you know, by the student leader, and and two or three days later, it spread into our university, and it was downtown in and there was student coming and giving speeches downtown in sulei bokoda, around the area. I was pretty close to our school, so I we went down there, and that was the one incident, in fact, you know, sulei bokoda road, it’s pretty white and pretty long. And it was, it was around the sleeper, and they started shooting. So we were all running, so I don’t know they were shooting, you know, into the sky they were actually shooting. But nobody was hot, but we ran like all the way to to Bucha Street, and then we can walk like slowly, but that was that was one incident like close with this shooting, and then in June, it started again. And July started more and more demonstration coming up. And then the 88 there were lots of killing. And I was there, but not like, close to, I mean, never really witnessed any shooting or anything, but, and then you hear from, you know, other people, like somebody called kill one of your friends got arrested or killed on the street. You know, that’s coming up a lot, right?
Joah
21:50
So then tell me about the decision and the psychology behind your choice to move from being in universities and on the streets protesting to then moving towards armed struggle and rebellion.
Aye Chan Naing
22:07
That was purely I mean, as I said, you know, you got into your mind that this military would never give up power, and let’s let you Push them, yeah, or you fight them back, right? So, so it wasn’t really, you know, hard decision, because it was very clear in your mind that there’s no way to fight the military peacefully. So it’s a man my friends, three or three other friends of mine, we decided to leave. In fact, that was before the coup. Like a month before the coup, we decided to leave and and to get contact with that like Grail a group, and get the military training, and maybe even, you know, smuggle arms back to the country. Because we were quite sure there will be a coup and there will be another crackdown, there will be much more killing, but, but then again, I mean, three three days before, after we reach to Thailand, there was a coup already, and, and this was done, the shooting, you know, killing, and then many hundreds, 1000 students also left to [Thailand].
Joah
23:42
So were you one of the first groups of students who tried to make contact with the ethnic armed groups? And can you tell us more about what that encounter was like?
Aye Chan Naing
23:52
I think yeah, we had like one of the first group to get in touch with the ethnic group. But in a way, it was quite disappointing, you know, because the ethnic group, they don’t know what’s going on inside Burma. They had no idea there were very little communication for them with the inside Burma. Yeah, even though, you know the army after the coup, they they, say that this whole uprising was organized by the Communist Party of Burma. It wasn’t true at all. I mean, the PCP, they didn’t even know, yeah, yeah, oh, you know they not really were and the KNU and the moon, even the Khin, they had no idea, or maybe just a little bit idea, but they were not really aware of what’s happening within Burma. And I think also this, it. It’s an interesting experience, in fact, because it’s, it’s decades of, you know, Burmese army brutality. Again, ethnic minority group, this trust of the Burman, by the ethnic groups, are very, very low, yeah. So they don’t, they don’t trust you, yeah. And they for them. They see, you know, Burman and the Burman, they don’t see the difference between the Burma army and the general public, right? I mean, the general public are the same, oppressed by the Burma army, just like the ethnic group. But of course, they get more wolves. You know, there were lots of rape and torture and killing by the Burma army against the ethnic group inside Burma. You don’t have to, but we also being oppressed, but we have to. I think that’s one of the big benefit of a lot of students, majority Burman, left the country and taken refuge in their ethnic area. And that’s sort of able to rebuild the trust and understanding and and we also don’t understand, you know, one ethnic group don’t trust us. We don’t understand why, you know. But later, after living in their area, in their places, then you start to realize, oh, you know, they have been oppressed for many, many years, and they lost the trust of of women, simply, for example, like we were in, I was, I was in one car in the Korean area when absdf was founded, and we were walking around in the in the village nearby. And there was a video the kind of showing the different kind of film. And the title The film was the war between karian and Burman. We thought that’s so strange. What Burman it must be. Should be Burmese army,
Joah
27:19
I see, right? Yeah. So you were present at the, basically, the formation of the absdf, and when it got off the ground, from being a student led organization in protest to a student led armed resistance tied with the ethnic organizations, ethnic armed organizations. What? What do you remember from the origins and the birth of the ABSDF?
Aye Chan Naing
27:49
I remember pretty well. I mean, I was in the first conference when the, like, even the name of the absdf, you know, started, but I wasn’t in the leadership role, and I was quite active, mainly with news, information, documentation. And I think there were lots of, you know, positive things, but then the problem, I think, you know, we, we were not really aware of how the international community work, you know, but we were pretty much isolated. And I realized, you know, when I, when I, I live mostly in Bangalore, at the time, working with youth. And I met a lot of the Thai student activists, other student activists from like Malaysia, you know, Hong Kong, Indonesia. And when we actually go to the meeting and talking to them, and then you realize how much knowledge you lack. You know how much knowledge they have. And we thought like when we came out and set up an army United States will come and give you training and give you lots of ammunitions. You know, there were nothing like that, and it doesn’t work that way. You know, there is always lots of these geopolitics that involve so we one thing that come up. It’s the knowledge, you know, the international knowledge. It’s a, it’s a, it’s something that really lacking. And then, like when you set up the army, you need, you need a guns, ammunition, you know, and not. You can forget about that, because we don’t even have enough fun for food medicine, you know. So it was a pretty hard, hard time, and you had to build this trust with the ethnic army. They’re the only one who can train militarily to all our members, you know. So that also take quite some time. And in terms of funding, it’s, it’s very the No, no one want to there were a few organizations that provide fun, for for for the student along the border, but most of them only provide food and medicine, you know, no nothing related to to for the military activity. So that’s also another big issue, and a lot of students got malaria. You know, all these pretty hard diseases. So after like the year or two, many students went back to inside Burma, and then some student left for that country. Yeah, I think that’s but the, I mean, the important, it’s like, as I said, you know, the absdf is, it’s the first permanent majority group that really sort of build the trust, you know, rebuild the trust with, with the ethnic armed groups. And that’s a very important point.
Joah
31:45
I think it’s very interesting that you describe that first conversation of when I asked you, what you remember that first conversation, I was expecting that there would be some dialog about the ways you have to build trust, or the ways you’re going to work together. And I have to confess, it surprised me that your answer was that they didn’t know what was happening. And now that I think about it, that that shouldn’t be so surprising. Of course, the state of media in the world at that time, anywhere without the internet and then compounded in a military dictatorship that has such a strong reign on suppressing Free Press everywhere. But it really is something to think that your first conversation was probably before you got to the trust or the cooperation or the collaboration or the let alone strategy. Part of it the first conversation was, let me tell you what’s been happening these last six months in Yangon.
Aye Chan Naing
32:39
Yeah, exactly. And they don’t know how big it was, and and then they don’t know how to how to help, I mean, and then, of course, this trust is a big, big gap. You know, you can’t just trust, build the trust like the next day. It takes a long time to gain trust each other, yeah. I mean, that’s a this Burmese military propaganda. It works quite, quite some length. I mean, not that people believe in their propaganda, but they can actually cut the information, you know, without the internet, even the landline, you know, it was not everybody has it. It’s a very rare like, if you’re only in the government position that you could get it like, even in the government position, you have to be quite high up, you know, to get a landline for someone like, you know, I left from Yangon and and I want to Marguerite, which is like part place of my Father. And I have my grandmother. I have my aunts, and my parent didn’t know I was going there, but, but then I told my Aung, so, you know, my parents sent me here because I was going on the demonstration, and they were me to be, you know, in in her place. She kind of believed it, you know, but there was no way she can call my parents home younger there was no telephone. The only way they can communicate, it’s by Telex. And I live there for one week. And after one week, she realized, in fact, that I was leaving the country, but I lived there for one week, and then I left to another town, and the Telex for Yangon only arrived after after I left the town. So. So that’s how you know the information flow took a long time, so they can effectively cut off quite a lot. I mean, maybe no surprise, like, why ethnic groups don’t really know what’s happening.
Joah
35:21
So then after that preliminary conversation, where you explain to them what’s been happening in 1988 these monumental events, what you want to do, and this is, this is a really unprecedented time in history of the country and the people. Is first time in modern history that I can think of where a BA Mar urban population is fleeing to the rural ethnic areas, asking for help, asking for serious help, of wanting to resist their own countrymen, their own ba Mar military, to join together. And this is something that kind of breaks the brain, maybe at the time, and thinking about these new alignments and alliances being formed. So you have that conversation, you stay your group does stay for some time, not months, but years, trying to live and train despite the hardships and the conditions. Eventually it didn’t result in any real, achievable victories on the battlefield or in actually in fighting, but certainly, connections are made. They’re forged you you’re able to have some kind of relationship. What do you remember from those months and years that you spent in being in the company with your fellow young Mar students, and in getting to know on a personal level, the ethnic communities and living in those villages and rural places for as long as you did.
Aye Chan Naing
36:51
To be honest, you know, I wasn’t that involved. I mean, after, after a while, I was mostly in Bangkok, then I was involved dealing with the ethnic relationship. But what I can say, it’s absdf, I mean, play a pretty big role like this, building the bridge between the ethnic groups and the Burman. Because, you know, after 1990 election, many of the parliamentarian also left Burma and then and they, they had the same situation like us too, right? Because they don’t know how the what the ethnic groups are feeling, but we already knew, because we would we were there, like two years earlier. So we can also bring the gap, and not only that, but also gradually, you know, after several years, we started talking about drafting the federal constitution, and that’s gone really quite far, you know, it’s and there were lots of delegation with people from bbstf, people from ex I government, and then people from the ethnic groups, so that even close The gap, you know, with with ethnic group. And there were quite some alliances that kind of forming up. And before, before, like 2010 there was like National Council of union of Burma. That’s like a big umbrella, you know, group with EX I government and other Burman majority organization like absdf, dbns, you know, Democratic Party for new society and the NLD also left some of the Energy members left. So I think that that’s the, you know, even though there were no tangible, like big achievements, but this relationship, it’s a pretty important and I think it’s paved the way now, like, you know, now the younger generation that come out after the coup, but the groundwork has already, already done. And of course, the whole situation still to different. Whole communication.
Joah
39:28
It reminds what you’re saying. Reminds me there’s a filmmaker friend I have in Yangon, whose father was active in 88 and he said, You know, I at the beat. It was, this was soon after the 2021 coup, he said, You know, I get really frustrated by outside observers saying that every time we’ve tried to resist the military, every cycle and seven and 88 and 74 we’ve always failed. The military has always won, and so this time is going to be the same. He said, That’s not the way I view history. The way I view it is that every. Time, we’ve resisted, we’ve learned something new, we’ve made some connection, we’ve forged some path. It hasn’t been far enough, and that’s why we’ve fallen down. But every time, we’re gaining knowledge, and then the elder generation is sharing with the new generation what that knowledge is for them to try things in a new way. And so he was in the very early stages of 2021 he was very optimistic that this time was going to be different, and that the narrative that the military always wins is a flawed narrative, because it wasn’t this black and white situation of the military just holding all the cards and winning every time. It was that the resistance and the youth were doing what they could to move the ball just a little further, but they didn’t have the resources. It wasn’t far enough, and he felt this was the time they’d be able to put it all together. And we’re still not there yet. But certainly this has played out very, very differently than any other period,
Aye Chan Naing
40:51
which is quite true, I mean, and not only that, but also, you know, the whole entire population in Burma with this military coup, you know, all oppressed. I mean, there were no generation left without their oppression, like my parents generation, they were oppressed by the army. And obviously our generation was oppressed, and now the younger generation oppressed. There is three generation being being oppressed and and it means like, because in 8888 I mean, after the the coup, they cracked down for three days, or maybe four days, and then everything quiet, you know, and there was the option of joining the election. And many people went into the election, including Aung San Suu Kyi, and things quickly back into, you know, normal inside Burma. So you can, you can say that lots of people say, No, I’m not interested in politics. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s for those who want to involve, they can involve, but this time around, I mean, you don’t see that kind of people. You don’t see people like sitting on the gray area. It become and it’s, it’s a, it’s, again, of course, it really polarized the whole society, right? Either you with me or you against me, you know? And that’s because everyone is affected. And that’s, that’s the this, this army, military, you know, they never learn from their own mistake. Because even though you know the things come back quite quickly, after the coup in 1988 there was still lots of activists, you know, who didn’t join the election, who still tried to revolve against military. There was excessive student protests after 88 even though, you know, it kind of cracked down by the army. And I remember one of the activists who’s been in out of prison. I remember he was talking to one journalist, and he said, the more I got into, into Jill, the more I stronger. If you look at the 88 generation students, you know they they got arrested, they throw into jail, and the day they came back, or they were released the next day they out on the street. And that’s the same thing here the military thought, the more they oppress, the more they show their brutality. People will got scared and try to avoid you know, joining politics or try to avoid joining revolt against Army. It doesn’t work that way. Well, total opposite. And now, like they’ve been bombing villages, you know, the cities really brutalized the whole, you know, village and civilian and and that really push, I mean, for example, like they banned down this village, and the next day, the whole entire town become a BDF members, right? And that’s, that’s the, that’s what they don’t realize. You know, they thought like the MOE they brutalize, the more people will get scared. Because maybe, you know, for for people, there’s nothing to lose. You know, I. Hmm, I think that’s, that’s what happening, what happening now and and also, like this new recruit of for the soldier, you know, conscription among the young people, that’s, again, they, they’re pushing people into the corner, maybe those young people who are still living in Yangon, maybe they’re not really interested in politics, or maybe they’re not really interested in joining the PDF by themselves. They just want to, you know, do their own usual, you know, study or business, but now they’re pushing them in the corner to make a decision, either I leave the country or either I joined the PDF, right? I mean, they’re just creating their own problem by themselves.
Joah
45:57
So getting back to your story, I want to follow your trajectory, and then head back into where we are now in post 2021, and especially DVB position and covering unprecedented ongoing conflict from exile, no less, but getting back to your origins, you explain how you were put in an immediate team of absdf And at the time, saying you don’t know exactly why you were given this designation, but that’s what you became. And then, so, okay, suddenly you’re, you’re the the information minister, or or or connection, or liaison. And you then in this position, you’re starting to see, organically, informally, the role that information plays to the outside world, and Burma is such a forgotten country by that point, even whatever we say, it’s left out of the news today. Really, pre 1988 was a different story of how little it was really being followed and regarded around the world, especially after that was the time of the fall the Cold War after, I think there was some intrigue in the Cold War era of us USSR, and where all the geopolitical stakes around the world would play. But with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dissolution of USSR, just a few years later, Burma was even less important as it went through the 90s, and so this really underscored even further, the importance of trying to make relevant and get information from inside to around the world. And you had a start of that being a media officer with as a young Mar student, which then led into wanting to carry this information war and information strategy further beyond once it became clear that the military was going to retain control. So share with us what you remember from those early days of being a media officer, whatever the term was then and then, how that started to transfer, to the early grant with shortwave radios from Norway, and then developed into something else altogether.
Aye Chan Naing
48:08
I mean, the whole reason I go into this journalism was mainly, in fact, because of bad litter, the Swedish writer, journalist. In fact, I was staying with him for the first three years when I came out, and we talk a lot, and my English wasn’t good at all at the time, but try to, you know, use whatever you know you can speed off. And he started writing the book and and sometimes I, you know, bring some students who he can interview, and I have been kind of following his writing, also learning English, you know, by reading it. And that’s how the kind of trigger, you know, into into writing the story. Yeah, and then I met the American NGO Walker, Max Edinger, and and I was talking with him, and then somehow this idea came out of publishing a magazine, like monthly magazine. So that’s how I go into more into journalism and and then, as I said, you know, I have become a quite close friends, like some of the Amnesty International researcher and I, I’ve been providing them with, you know, information about those who are in prison in Burma. And I realized, you know, I. How little the whole international community know about Burma? It’s funny, like, you know, we don’t know about the world function, right? But the world don’t know what’s happening in Burma either. Like, we are sort of out in the out in the, what you call moon or something. So that’s also the, there is a big gap, right? And then, when I saw, like, for example, what I have, you know, reported to the MST, and then I saw in the report about, you know, the information that I have provided that give more kind of a incentive, and and then later I thought, it’s, it’s, I mean, getting the names of the prisoner in Burma. It’s not like, you know, they would be released the next day, but at least, like for the army, military, need to away, like the whole international community, know that this particular person is in your prison, and if something happens, it’s your responsible that function in that way, I thought so. It’s a, it could give me a, you know, strength and energy to keep walking on on that, right?
Joah
51:27
And so that describes the motivation that you had in wanting to move towards the direction of media, getting information out. You referenced earlier that that started. Sounds like the motivation started with your friendship with portrayal lintner, the the Swedish journalist and author, and then the actual practical start came with this grant from Norway of developing shortwave radio communication back into Burma, and I imagine From there just grew organically. Is that correct?
Aye Chan Naing
51:59
Yes, the radio was like, I mean, I was more in into the print, you know, and more into writing the article. But the radio, it’s pretty new. Never really touch a microphone. I started like, I mean, the whole living outside of Burma, it’s like, you never think of a long time ahead. You know, I always thought like I’d be able to go back home maybe in next month. You literally kind of living day by day. So there was nothing like looking ahead for many years, you know. But then why we were walking in the radio. We got quite some training, the first by the former BBC Burmese section had he came and trained us, so he kind of increased the level of knowledge in journalism. And then another ex TV section journalist, quite senior, and he came and walked with us for several years, and that really helped a lot. And then I got the chance to study like three months journalism course at the Thomson foundation. So do you learn more and more into into journalism, and the same with my other colleagues. But then the funny thing, not the funny thing, but then the more you go into the journalism and you know, kind of realize, like when you have a microphone, you can say whatever you want, right? But if we’re doing exactly the same as the Burmese military, you know we know different. So that’s like after 10 years, because in the beginning, we report a lot about exile activities, what they doing, but not so much like news, you know. But the more we study, the more we learn about journalism. It’s, it’s, it’s not the way it works, right? It’s, it has to be about the people. So we can, we become more and more independent from the organization group, and there will, there were, there were lots of anger among the organization group who were my friends. To maybe a CF from, you know, ethnic groups. We try to explain to them. You know, it’s not like we are shifting away from democratic movement, but only the way we walk. It’s, it’s, it’s a different but some people understand. Some people don’t. But what I what I want is, you know, we want to have a respect and the trust from our audience, not just from the general public audience, but also from the Burmese army people. Burmese, military, government. I want them to know that we were telling the truth, you know, and then by telling the truth, they they, they were, sort of gave us a respect, because these guys are not doing propaganda. They’re not lying. They’re telling the truth, even though they may not like it, because we’re telling the truth, right? And I think it turned out to be quite, quite positive, because when we moved back in, we realized, you know, they were like, quietly praising us, like we met some of the people in the Ministry of Information who has been working for decades. And I also met, like one, one of the ministry official, and he told me, like, I had to listen your brokers every night, have to write down everything and report it back to the authority or the higher level, you know, government official. And they, even, you know, the top army guys, they were really sort of respecting us.
Joah
57:03
This is interesting describing the journey from activism to journalism, and so often in Burmese history that the cycles that continue to repeat themselves are just to a T sometimes, and when you follow what happened in previous conflicts, and this one, we’re just seeing those same cycles continuing to occur, and one of those cycles is that division between activism and journalism, the distinction between it what the drive for people in the democracy movement to want to hear good news and want to hear news that reinforces the notion that they’re on the right side of history and they’re doing the right things, and they’re going to win in the end, which is understandable given the the weight of the oppression that is being waged. And yet journalism is is, is built upon a notion of truth, of objectivity, for whatever that means, because I’m never going to get rid of bias, but you can at least acknowledge the existence of bias and try to work within it. And and I think that those activists then and now, and not just limited to Burma, but around the world where struggles are happening, I think there can be a tendency among among activists to see journalism as simply a a greater platform to amplify what we’re already saying ourselves rather than something that’s actually going to pick apart and analyze and look at other perspectives than simply amplifying and repeating what it is you’re saying. And so that’s a journey that you made specifically, particularly as from an activist to a journalist, as a personal journey for you, and having to leave some friends behind you didn’t quite understand that transition, and this is something we see a lot today as well, in how Burmese journalists are trying to define themselves and some of the struggles and problems that they’re having. I’m wondering for you, at that time, you mentioned that there were some kind of frayed relationships and misunderstandings among activist friends who didn’t understand the shift that you were making. Do you? Do you recall any specific incidences or conversations or occurrences where you were trying to wear your newfound journalist hat and report on something in a particular manner, and an activist friend was saying, no, no, no, don’t frame it that way. This is the message that we want to get out. And you were no in journalism, we have to look at it. We can’t just take what you’re saying. We have to look at it in a fuller context and with a greater perspective. Do you remember any particular incident where that came clashing back then?
Aye Chan Naing
59:32
Many, of course, you know, not just like, really, I mean, complaining about what we made, how we make a story, but also, like some of the story that is not like good for the opposition. You got a call like right away. Complaining about it, and you try to explain, you know, it doesn’t work that way. But some, some people, it’s okay. I mean, they angry, and then forget about it. I But I remember like I was asked by our board of director to go into Thailand and explain to all the and the opposition groups and and I was pretty much grill in the meeting. I remember one of the leader of the organization. He was saying me, you will, you will be recorded in the history something you know, very strong.
Joah
1:00:49
Oh no. Oh dear,
Aye Chan Naing
1:00:54
Yeah. But I mean, that’s the job that you know, you choose and and and if you, if you point out the army, what they doing wrong, you have a duty also to point out, you know, what the opposition are doing wrong as well. And they are also, you know, ingestic among some of the groups and nowadays, like, you know, some of the BDF group, they also violated human rights in some village. We got that kind of stories, and we have to progress. It’s not like we are trying to discredit that’s how people, people misunderstood. I mean, it’s not us to discredit the opposition groups. It’s, it’s the people themselves, you know, who are committing the crime. It’s, it’s doing the this credit for the movement. Um, but I think it’s important that, you know, we keep telling, you know, wherever side it’s happening, it’s not like you’re not on this side or that side. And of course, I mean, personally, you know, I want to see democracy in Burma. And I want to know, I mean, I’m, I do really support, you know, what all the people are doing, but that’s a different from, you know, our daily job, yeah, that what we do.
Joah
1:02:33
I think it’s the difficulty is compounded by the fact that Burma has had so few years of being in a free society that has sponsored the cultivation of free and critical and democratic thought of people believing different things and following different paths. And so perhaps there could among the audience and the readership that is again, that is facing such difficulties and repressions now that that there’s also a growth or maturation that needs to go, that needs to happen, and that would happen in any free society as the years went on, of understanding what it meant to live in a free society and allow people to have different opinions, other opinions, express themselves in different ways, and realize that there was a place for something that you didn’t agree With and you didn’t like and you didn’t want to hear, but it still had a place in society, and you could either stand up and argue against it and or do your own thing and push in a different direction, or just shut it off and ignore it and go do your thing. I think this is maybe something has to be learned.
Aye Chan Naing
1:03:34
Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you, if you don’t, then you are creating another another dictatorship. You know, people can take the criticism and try to suppress it then, then gradually, you will become a data one day, like I remember, you know, when we moved back into Burma and one Aung San Suu Kyi and the NLD government. NLD become a government. You know, we keep on criticizing reports about NLD government and our San Suu Kyi and I remember one of the friends of mine, not him directly, but somebody asked him, like, whether DVB has already bought by crony why because they’re criticizing and the city government.
Joah
1:04:28
it’s the only way you can think to try to understand it. And so that does segue into the transition, which is very interesting, and the role that a seemingly free press had, that had in so many cases been in exile and then tenuously starts to slip and slither back into believing in a freer opening, certainly not entirely free. And we know that Aung San Suu Kyi and the NLD was not particularly sympathetic towards journalists having their freedoms to be. Able to report and publish on things which they didn’t want out there. And so as a journalist, as the head of one of the major media outfits in Myanmar at the time, what can you tell us about the experience of coming back to have a place in your actual country with a semi more Democratic leadership in charge and the freedoms or restrictions that were in place at that time.
Aye Chan Naing
1:05:30
I mean, it’s kind of quite disappointing, in a way, to be quite front under our San city government, because they fail to, actually, you know, build, build the independent media platform or the foundation, you know, and and not build up. But also, even, don’t care, you know, we were like, oh, push in the corner. And, of course, like, you know, there is a freedom of expression. We can progress whatever we want by intensive promoting, you know, helping the whole media sector improve. There was nothing there and access to information, it’s also very limited, because it’s very hard to get interview with government ministers. You can forget about doing interview with Aung San Suu Kyi. We requested many times, but never, never accepted. And not just only the media, but also the civil society groups. They were also pretty much neglected. And that’s the two area, right? When you want to build democracy stronger, these two grassroots you know, groups need to be strengthened, pretty much. And nothing that happened. And of course, I mean, under things in government, you don’t get anything. Still, there’s a freedom, freedom of expression, but it was much more easier to get assessed to interview requests with the minister. They are more than eager to talk to us in 10 San during his government time.
Joah
1:07:26
Why do you think that was that his ministers were more eager to talk to Aung San, Suu Kyi?
Aye Chan Naing
1:07:30
No, I mean, they, they realize there’s a few reason they one of the minister even told me, if I, if I give you, if I talk to you, people believe and people watch more. They watch our state. Yeah. So that’s the one reason, and another reason, I think, is basically, you know, they know that they’re not actually a legitimate government. They they knew themselves. They cheated the election in 2010 interesting, right? So they knew themselves pretty well that they were not really legitimate government, yeah. And they needed legitimacy, you know, somehow, and the connection from the international community, so they are kind of using us, you know, to to prove like they are committed for the change. So that’s, that’s how, that’s why, I think they try to please us, to right, you know, willing to talk to us and
Joah
1:08:38
and so looking at what Aung San Suu Kyi administration did during those years, and not strengthening the two pillars of what a greater democratic society would be. You mentioned civil society is one, and journalists, free free journalism and press on the other. There’s the question I want to ask is, if you think that this not just negligence, but in some ways, actual resistance and obstacles that were placed to these groups, if this helped to pave the way towards the coup taking place. This is the question I want to ask, but I want to preload that with what we always hear on the other side that we do have to acknowledge the context that every that the those defenders will say, look, she was never in full control. She was so afraid of a coup happening. We had Sean Tranel on the podcast three times, and he talked about being in her administration and that they were terrified every single day of the military. They said we knew they were trying to do it, we knew they were just looking for any excuse at any time to be able to stop everything that we were doing. We never really felt secure that we can proceed in doing it. And so all the decisions that we were making, Sean Tranel describes were with a an understanding of how we always had to keep them. Military at bay, and this has been the rationale that’s been explained many times of why Aung San Suu Kyi also was not just silent on the Rohingya crisis, but seemingly to defend the military at times, most famously even in when she made a statement literally defending the military in court. And so there’s this counter argument that, as Sean Tranel and others have made, that there was this great care in having to not go too far. Because if you just appease the military and you don’t go too far and trigger them, it might be enough to hold them off from wanting to shut everything down, which they could do any day. On the other hand, the balance of that is, as you’re saying, and many others that we’ve spoken to on this platform have also said, by not doing enough to support a growing democratic society and the instruments involved within a functioning democracy, that the far from being concerned about appeasing the military. It actually stemmed the progress and the growth and the strength of what could have better prevented a coup from happening in the first place. So this is a tough discussion to have because it’s also we know what played out. We know what happened in history. Hindsight is always 2020 so it’s very easy to say that this action was right or wrong based on what actually happened and occurred. But I would also be very interested to hear your opinion of how Aung San Suu Kyi administration, lack of encouraging journalism and civil society, how that may have played into the military’s hands and then led in some way, directly or indirectly, to the 2021, coup.
Aye Chan Naing
1:11:43
I think the coup wasn’t, I mean, that thing always, you know, rumor about possibility of the coup. And we all, we all thought, you know, Aung San Suu Kyi, it’s too careful about the army. I mean, the Rohingya crisis and issue was pretty obvious. But that’s also not only the army, but also the general public. You know, with, with, when it come to the Rohingya crisis, the general public. It’s also pretty biased, I would say, yeah, for sure. But why I believe, like the, what you call NLT government, the military has pretty much power, right, based on the Constitution, yeah, and, and that’s why I thought like, you know, even closer to the coup, you know, the February 1, they were like, the rumor was getting stronger and stronger, but I was still thinking, like, I would not expect to hurt the coup, but it’s not because I was stupid, but because I thought they were not that stupid. I mean, they have a total freedom of, you know, running their own business, running their own army, and they are filthy rich. And not just the current military leadership, but the success of military leadership, you know, they’re extremely rich. And and, and the Aung San Suu Kyi government, it’s, it’s all become legalized, you know, they, they can own it, you know, like during the entire period. I mean, they may own it, but it’s not legitimate, right? But under the government all day, well, it’s kind of recognized and and why do they need to seize the power? You know they can do still under like Rohingya crisis, they can do whatever they want, but Aung San Suu Kyi got blamed. They don’t have to get blamed. They don’t have to face the international community, you know, with sanction. And you know all the criticism, you know, all the criticism, before I go to Aung San Suu Kyi, right? So that’s why I thought they were not that stupid. And I think the only thing, it’s, it’s, it was, it was, I think, more to do with, you know, a quick decision by May online, and maybe, you know, some of his advisor and some of the political party you know that close to USDP, who lost the election, I think they giving him a wrong analysis. And then he decided, because right after the election. And before the after the result came out, usdb Party called for press conference, and they said they won the new election, and the new election should be convened by the election commission, together with the army, and then the next day, military had to hold a press conference, and they said that was not their idea. They had nothing to do with this USDP announcement, I see, so they keep away from that. And then the few days later, they told at the press conference the election won successfully, right? So I don’t think until that point they had a, they had a any idea about the coup. And I think the coup is maybe coming up, you know, closer to the next parliamentary section around that time. And I think some of these advisor maybe saying, telling him, you know, like just Sita bawa change the constitution. You know, the they know, they probably realize, you know, as long as Aung San Suu Kyi is there. They could never able to come back to power, and they want to change in the Constitution this one clause for proportional electoral system to spread the whole vote and maybe his advisor telling him, you know, you can crack down in three days. Everybody were quiet. You know, just like in the 1988 you know, in the previous time, like in 2007 the crackdown was like three full days. Yeah, everything quiet, right? So I think that’s, that’s the belief, you know, that they could took the power, seized su coup, and and crack down with this demonstration, and, you know, change the constitution and then real, run the election, but 2021, is not the 1988 right? That’s what they don’t believe. And I, I’ve been told, like some of the insider, you know, for the first one or two months, they were, like, very confident, and they can do it. And after four or five months after the coup, they getting, they’re getting like worry, and then six, seven months later, they believe themselves like they pretty much stuck. They don’t know how to get out of it. And now it’s, of course, you know, even much more worse, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joah
1:18:07
Before going deeper into the current conflict, we are several years now into it, which I definitely want to hit upon and follow up, I do just want to ask one more question about that transition period, and that’s you mentioned how you felt that as Aung San Suu Kyi administration came to power, that you could report on anything. Said that you really, you felt you really did have freedoms and how you were able to carry your journalism. You didn’t have access to so much to administers, but you did have some sense of freedom. So we’re there to expand on that. Did DVB or your reporters, or any stories, did you run into certain problems, and aside from access, just people not making themselves available, but aside from that, that access issue, did you ever run into problems of stories that you wanted to follow, that you felt you would get into some serious trouble or repercussions if you went down certain pathways,
Aye Chan Naing
1:19:05
Mostly the story that related to the army and the Rohingya, sure, that’s the two areas that are quite difficult, and the story that related to Rohingya because there’s no access. You know, we were brought by by the government, one of our journalists with them to to visit some of the villages in a hurricane, Rohingya villages. But they were not allowed to talk to anyone that was unanswered government. So there was no SS, and then if he says something, then they can easily accuse, you know, we are fabricating the story, and they are like, off limit area, so we can’t do that. And the same with the army. You know, there were. Is quite a few, what you call killing villages, you know, just like in the bath, and then we tried to get confirmation, you know, response from the army. And it took a long time. We had to be we had to careful with we need, we need to give them a chance to respond, right? That that’s how we can secure our back. But then it took quite some time, but that was, I mean, they did respond like there was a one story. In fact, I it was a Khin that was during San government. I think there was a Khin woman who was kidnapped and taken by the Burma army outburst in the kitchen state, and she was raped in the camp, and she wasn’t allowed to leave. And in the end, I think they killed her. And, and we were doing the documentary about it, and, and in the film, we got the video footage of the girl, like was, like on the hilltop, so the people can see her in the morning. So they, they film it. And and then we were about to release and then we, we thought we had to get a, you know, comment and response from the army, and it took about two months to get an answer. And they did answer, and it was very funny. They were excusing themselves, saying that that outpost is surrounded by Kia soldiers, so they were pretty much isolated, and they couldn’t leave the camp. And then the soldier become a long pair. The woman, it’s one of the soldiers,
Joah
1:22:17
how creative they can be, right? So moving to post coup you, I mean you personally in DVB as an institution. It’s very interesting to track this history over the years and decades. You start your Genesis is in the aftermath of the field absdf, ethnic army alliance that then brings out this, this desire to want to have an information war and a and to engage more in the information space as to what is happening. And then from there, you grow in exile, I imagine, before the transition period, you come back during the transition and you’re actually able to report again in your home country. That’s only a short lived experiment. And then with the 2020, coup, you would, in addition to every other media house there, has to urgently evacuate. Lives are at risk, to leave everything behind and to find some kind of home in a third country or third countries. And then the everything about what you’re doing has to somehow change. You have to keep your journalistic ethics and objectivity and the platform that you’ve built, but everything from journalist safety to funding to organization and simple logistics, everything is now thrown into questions. So describe what that was like to make that sudden shift, which was, unfortunately, wasn’t new. Was something that I’m sure you’ve been dealing with in other other years and other issues that have come up at different times, but to make a shift of that profound nature at that time with the 2021 coup, and then in the last few years, as you’ve had to operate in exile again. What challenges you’re facing, challenges that maybe are similar to challenge of the past years, as well as new challenges that this particular time in history is presenting that might stand out?
Aye Chan Naing
1:24:16
Yes, I mean the coup it’s like, in fact, destroy everything you know, that we have built up once we move back in 2012 so it’s, it’s a pretty bad negative impact to, you know, our organization and the way we want to move forward we were really looking forward to, you know, another five years. Finally, government. We can expand a lot more area and, and I mean, as you, you know, a journalist, because then you want to be, you know, on the ground with the with the public right. And that chance has totally gone right. We still have people walking underground, but, but then, you know, nowadays, because of security risk, you can’t even, you know, use your own phone to film. It’s very, very risky, yeah, but the biggest challenge we face was the security of our journalists. And another, another problem is, you know, like before we move in, we had lots of journalists who are walking underground anonymously, and we build the network like quietly, without anyone knowing it. But then when we move back in, things get normalized, and they become upper ground, working openly. But then after the coup, you can’t go underground again, because you’re already known by the public and the government officials. And if you walk in the DVB, like, especially, especially like, you know, as a reporter or news anchor program host like your neighbor, know people in the streets you live in, sure they know. Yeah, you know, yeah, the police knows, you know, the township administrator know, and you can no way, like, keep on walking, you know, if you live inside Burma. So we have to really start recruiting more people, new people, and that all will take times, but in the in, outside of Burma, it’s it that’s not a big problem. I mean, took a while, you know, to get a place to refunction again, but we have been doing that for the last 20 years. So walking from exile is not a huge problem, but, but you have to work with those inside perma and that’s that’s the difficult part, to rebuild a whole network of people.
Joah
1:27:19
What’s been the most difficult thing about keeping the organization active in this time of really tumultuous change.
Aye Chan Naing
1:27:28
I mean, it’s nothing really new. I mean, every year we have to struggle, you know, financially sure to keep running the organization to get enough funding because, I mean, inside Burma, we will try to generate our own income from TV commercial to, you know, we do all different kind of jobs that to generate income related to media. So we do documentary protection for some NGOs, you know, UN agency, we host a talk show for different organization. So we generate about 50% of our own income, and that’s growing every year. And our focus and projection is, by 2025 we will be break even. We’ll be able to survive entirely by our own funding. Yeah, right. But the day after the coup, the same day the coup taken, all the advertiser said, hey, please don’t end my company advertising. It’s from, you know, like, 50% to zero, like the next day. Yeah. So we had to depend entirely on funding from different, different donor. And that’s, that’s a huge problem.
Joah
1:29:02
It’s a big problem, and it’s not just you, but we’re going from an ecosystem where different Burmese media platforms with different audiences and directions and orientations, different models were we’re trying to be sustainable in ways that media is anywhere in the world, through a mix of advertisements and generating their income, as you say, creative partnerships, different projects, and then, of course, the grants and donations being some part of that puzzle, but also being self sustaining in a freer society, and also operating On in their own territory and in their own place and region, and suddenly, overnight, you have all of these different platforms that are now occupying a very small bit of space, basically in the same place. Basically it’s much as in Mesa or Chiang Mai or. Somewhere in Mizoram or part of India, there’s exceptions, but mostly they’re all occupying this very small bit of space and also reporting on very similar issues, because what else matters right now, but different nature of the conflict, and then importantly, having to rely on largely the same funders and the same donor organizations to keep all of them alive, which is in everyone’s interest, to be able to have a diverse media ecosystem that’s able to respond to this crisis. And so this is a really dramatic change that’s not just DVB survival, but a survival of independent media, which is now almost from my understanding, entirely dependent on a small number of donor organizations to keep it afloat, which is not really good for anyone, not good for media, not good for the people, not good for the donor organizations. But it’s the situation that we’re in, because everything was trashed with the coup. And so what does it mean for independent media and journalism to find itself in this peculiar situation and to be dependent largely on a similar one, stream funding source to be able to survive and to play its critical role in the nation and country going forward.
Aye Chan Naing
1:31:18
It’s a it’s a pretty hard I mean, we have been trying to, you know, find different revenue stream, like, for example, we have created this membership, like, pay membership like, but it’s, it’s very hard. I mean, people attitude, you know, every day you get come to our website, you know, our Facebook, you get it for free. Yeah, and it’s very hard for people to change your mind, like, why should I start paying you know? Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a difficult, difficult thing. And I mean, the independent media survivor, it’s not just permanent, but everywhere, exactly, it’s, it’s facing the huge problem, yeah, because advertising funding is going into digital. And then even in the digital you go into social media, it’s, it’s a, it’s a kind of a international trend, right? But then again, when it comes to news, channel, news doesn’t make money, but it costs lots of money to produce news, right? And you need some kind of funding to keep as a as an independent I remember, you know, while we were in Burma, we see the Chinese like really moving around and try to buy different media organization groups. And when you get funding from the Western countries, they don’t come in interfere with your editorial. You’re completely independent, right? But, but the Chinese, I mean, they want their own propaganda. They want to publish you, you know, the editorial, you know, friendly editorial lines, that kind of thing. So we have to keep pretty much away from them. And not just only then, but also like different military cronies you know, who want to buy up and and once you get them in, you know, then you can’t be independent anymore. So somehow, to keep independent, you need, you need, you need, like, donor who are interested in, you know, independent use, and, you know, information, and especially, that’s what I try to convince the donor, like, especially these days, you know, with with lots of fake news, propaganda, disinformation. You need independent media, who, who people can trust believe in their credibility, and you need to counter those information.
Joah
1:34:22
What do you find is the most difficult thing in reporting on this particular conflict going forward? We’ve referenced this a bit before, about the separation and transition from activism to journalism, and this is something that we still see today, that you’re you’re not a service to simply amplify the resistance voice that you need to be objective. You need to hold things to certain standards of accountability. And then you also have an audience that, as we’ve mentioned, largely wants to hear good news. Understandably, it’s it’s difficult to hear when the when there’s a belief that anything that shows strength, a. Or resilience of the military. People want to see it fall. We all want to see it fall, but we also have to be truthful in describing events as they’re unfolding. So with this in mind, or perhaps something else, what do you find as one of the challenges that has really stood out in your reporting going forward.
Aye Chan Naing
1:35:22
That’s a good question. You know, it’s like right after the coup, like many of our journalists came out, and people want to hear, you know, the opposition is winning, and and some of the journalists, you know, they themselves witness all these killing, shooting, you know, they got really angry. So even in their own writing, you know, become very extreme, you know, like, use the language, you know, I see, yeah, and we had to really cool them down. Like, you know, don’t forget, you’re doing your journalism and and, and when you have a story that you’re winning, then you you get really lots of light and follow. It’s like, it’s like, what you call you of course, like every journalist, you know, they want the article to be read by many, many people, right? So we had to, like, sort of take the break, you know. And we have, like, I had to tell them, you know, I don’t, I don’t want too many lights. Or we don’t need it, you know. But what we need is to keep our to keep trust of the audience, if we, if we lose that, then, then we finish. You know, if people don’t trust you, what you are writing, publishing, broadcasting, then, then, then we’re gone, right? So that’s that’s also very hard to once you lost the trust, then it’s very hard to rebuild. So we said, like, even, you know, the breaking news, like, we don’t, we have to. We don’t need to break the news nowadays, on the internet age, I mean, we used to break the news in the past, you know, before 2010 1112, but nowadays, like, breaking news happen on the internet, social media, right? And but we need to make sure like it is true. Of course, you know, sometimes we make mistake, but not like shouldn’t be, you know, happening, or more often, you know. So that’s, that’s the sort of way we want to go. We don’t want, like, clip back story, you know, we don’t want sensational story, but we want to keep a high standard when it comes to, you know, our reporting.
Joah
1:38:18
You talked about difficulties under the NLD administration, and some of the obstacles you faced in access and what you were able to report on, specifically Rohingya and military matters. How would you characterize nug? I know that nug is not actually in control in the way a normal government is, but when you try to report on what the nug or the nucc or CRP H is doing, or even if you want to look at the the EA OS different or PDFs, we can keep going on. But when, when you’re looking at reporting on we can call them some of these authorities, these organizations, and you’re trying to report objectively on them. You’re trying to get access to tell their stories and confirm things with them and understand who they are, as any good journalist would want to do, and have the freedom to report on what you would like to what kind of access or pushback or obstacles do you feel among these groups?
Aye Chan Naing
1:39:16
There’s no particular accident with NUG or the other organization, I mean in terms of our reporting, and it’s, it’s usually very quick response, like when we ask for question. I mean, we do interview with NUG ministers their other departments, the only, the only thing is the communication. I mean, if you want to get in touch with PDF inside Burma, sometimes they have no internet, you know, only the technical kind of a problem we haven’t, like have, I don’t think any. Many like, complain, Oh, great, yeah, and thank you so much for you know, doing this interview, I really look forward to listening myself on your podcast channel.
